“Welcome Pastor McPhearson. It is a privilege to have you on our show.” Mr. LaMonte greeted her.

She just nodded her head. I don’t think she was too pleased to be there.

“A lot of our audience follows you religiously, so to speak,” Mr. LaMonte said, trying to break the ice.

Pastor Holly McPhearson turned towards one of the cameras and gave a smile. “It’s always good to connect with my followers,” she said, “but I have to admit that I am a bit unclear as to why I am here.”

That was bold but I was learning not to be surprised.

LaMonte smiled broadly and said, “Well, someone on your staff owed me a big favor and, besides, you know how I like to create some controversy on my shows.”

“Well, it is a good way to keep the ratings up,” Pastor McPhearson said without smiling.

“Yes, well, of course,” Mr. LaMonte said. “So here we have a virtual nobody going up against a famous Pastor, a real David and Goliath situation.”

“I don’t think I appreciate being called the “Goliath” in this situation, but I see your point.” She looked at me briefly and then back to LaMonte. “It’s your show.”

LaMonte picked up a book from his desk and showed it to the cameras which zoomed in to show the title and author. The book was called “Heaven is a Myth and Hell is a Joke, by Pastor Holly McPhearson.”

I was surprised. I hadn’t seen the book before. I quickly looked at Pastor McPhearson, but she wouldn’t look in my direction.

“So, it looks like you stole these titles from Mr. Amsing’s work,” he said. “We checked the dates, and his titles predate yours. What do you have to say about that?”

I could see Pastor McPhearson’s face flush as she started to get angry, but I jumped in before she could say anything. “All of my books and writings are under a Creative Commons license which means that anybody can use anything that I have written. Even book titles.” I looked at her and said, “Congratulations on your new book, it looks great.”

She seemed to relax and even looked at me and smiled. “Thank you,” she said quietly.

LaMonte wasn’t too happy about the lack of controversy but that wasn’t my problem. I wasn’t going to play his game at the expense of someone else. “Well, that may be true, but you can’t deny that she went in the opposite direction with her book than you did with yours, Mr. Amsing.”

“I don’t know what she did,” I said. “I haven’t read her books.”

“You haven’t read any of her more than forty books on the market today?” Mr. LaMonte asked. “Do you watch her broadcasts? Are you a follower on her social media?”

“No, I’m not.”

LaMonte looked wickedly at Pastor McPhearson and then back at me. “Why not?”

I looked at Pastor McPhearson and said, “I haven’t followed you yet but now that I’ve met you in person, I think I will. Besides I would like to read your new book.”

Again, she smiled weakly at me but then glared back at LaMonte. “Harry, I know this is what you like to do, ambush people and try to get them to argue with each other but I don’t appreciate it one bit.” She looked like she was going to get up and leave.

LaMonte jumped in and apologized. “Yes, you’re right and I’m sorry. I’m not trying to make you look bad, but you have to admit that you have radical ways of looking at the Bible. You believe that Heaven is a Myth, don’t you?”

“Yes, I do, and I am aware that Mr. Amsing used that same title to prove the opposite. That Heaven was not a myth.”

“So, you’ve read Mr. Amsing’s books?”

“Yes, I have, and I follow him on social media as well.” She looked at me with a bit of a twinkle in her eyes. “I like his reverse psychology approach even though I don’t agree with much of it.”

“Well, that is interesting,” LaMonte said. “Why do you believe that heaven is a myth?” The question was obviously for Pastor McPhearson.

“Because it is part of this manipulation of people by the mainstream churches,” she said. “I was listening to your discussion about hell earlier and I agree with Mr. Amsing when he said that Hell was used for centuries as a way to control and manipulate the masses. Heaven is a part of that same deception.”

“I agree,” I said.

“You agree?” LaMonte couldn’t believe what he was hearing.

“Yes, both the concepts of heaven and hell have manipulated people for centuries. That doesn’t mean that I don’t believe that they are real places, only that people, and especially the church, tend to use these religious ideas for their own ends.”

“But you believe that heaven and hell exist as real places,” LaMonte said.

“Yes and no,” I said. “The emphasis is not on a physical place, although that is true, but on who is there with you. In hell, you get to live with the Devil and all the rest of humanity with no restraints on their evil. In heaven, you get to live with God and all of those who have chosen to follow him with no restraints on their love for each other.”

“Interesting,” LaMonte said.

Pastor McPhearson was looking at me strangely. “So, what you are saying is that heaven and hell are more relational than physical.”

“Or both,” I said, “but with a priority on the relational. The only reason anybody goes to hell is because they can’t stand to be in heaven.”

LaMonte looked at me surprised and then at Pastor McPhearson who wasn’t paying him any attention at all.

“I think I missed that in your books,” she said. “What do you mean?”

“Well, in order to get there, you have to accept a lot of things beforehand, like the existence of God, the truth of the Bible, and the concept of sin and evil. Only when you understand the problem as the Bible states it, can you truly understand the solution that God provides.”

“Go on,” Pastor McPhearson said.

“The reason for the truce is to learn to trust God again, to restore our relationship with him before we die.”

“Yes, the whole good news thing. I’m not a big believer in Jesus taking my place on the cross. Another myth in my opinion.”

“Perhaps,” I said. “But I told you that I would try to accurately give you the perspective from the Bible whether you believe it to be true or not. Is that fair?”

Pastor McPhearson nodded her head. So, I kept going.

“According to the Bible, if we do not learn to trust God again and restore our relationship with Him by accepting his solution, which was the substitution of Jesus on the cross for our sins, then we are lost.” I looked around to make sure everyone was with me.

“But get back to that idea that people only go to hell because they can’t stand being in heaven,” LaMonte said.

“Yes,” Pastor McPhearson said, “I’m pretty sure that the Bible says that God sends people to hell not that we send ourselves to hell.”

“Or maybe both,” I said. “The basic idea is that because of the evil within us, we find God to be quite dangerous and scary because we know he is just and fair in all his dealings and he is very angry with the way we hurt one another here on earth.”

“So, we fear his judgment,” Pastor McPhearson said. “He doesn’t sound like the kind of God I want to follow.”

“Hold on to that thought,” I said. “We’ll get back to that. The point is that we fear God because we know his judgment on our sin and evil is just and right. If we didn’t agree with him, then I would agree with you, Pastor McPhearson. That’s why I said it was both. God sends us to hell, but we agree to go because we can’t stand to be in His presence.”

She nodded her head. “So, we don’t just fear his judgment but his presence.”

“I would say that we fear his presence even more than his judgment.” I paused for a moment. “I’m not saying that everyone fears God or that everyone even believes in the same God in this life,” I said. “But something happens when you start reading the Bible and believing what it says about human nature and God’s anger about how we treat each other. Instinctively we know it’s true.”

“Not everyone does,” Pastor McPhearson said.

“Yes, you’re right. We believe that it is God that convinces us of our sin and his judgment on it but not everyone becomes a believer just by reading the Bible.”

“Another one of your mysteries, I suppose,” she said.

I didn’t answer. I didn’t want to get sidetracked from the main issue at hand. “So, if you believe that you are a sinner and that evil is an option for you when it is convenient or helpful to get what you want and if you believe that God exists and stands in judgment on your lifestyle, then you begin to understand how dangerous Christianity really is.”

“Yes, I remember that part in your series on the Book of Revelations,” Pastor McPhearson said. “You said that Christianity is the most dangerous religion because after we die, we will all stand in judgment of our lives for the evil we have caused.”

“Yes, exactly,” I said. “We don’t just disappear out of existence or get recycled in some form of reincarnation.”

“I still don’t understand why we would rather be in hell than in heaven,” LaMonte said. I think he was feeling a bit left out of the discussion.

“The simple way to put it is to say that to live with God in heaven you need to be without sin and evil and you need to have a loving relationship with him.”

“Sin and evil are taken care of with the substitution of Christ on the cross,” LaMonte said.

“And learning to love God in this life is what discipleship is all about,” Pastor McPhearson added. “So far so good.”

“So, if you don’t love God and you are still full of sin and evil, you will be scared of God in a big way and want to hide from him just like Adam and Eve did at the very beginning. That is why God stays hidden even today. That is why in the Old Testament it tells us that to see the face of God was to die an instant death. His justice would demand our deaths immediately.”

“So, he stays hidden?” LaMonte said. “I hadn’t thought about it that way before.”

“Well, he stayed hidden until he didn’t stay hidden any longer.”

“You’re talking about Jesus now, aren’t you?” Pastor McPhearson said.

“Yes, I am. Those who have a new relationship with God want to be with him in heaven. Those who do not, want to be as far away as possible. We call that hell.”

“Yes, but hell is a whole lot worse than just not being with God,” LaMonte said.

“Is it?” I said. “Right now, God is hidden but shows himself only through Christ. Yet he keeps his truce every day to give people a chance to hear the good news and come to him. Every day the sun shines on the just and the unjust alike.”

“Jesus said that,” Pastor McPhearson said.

“Yes, this world, this truce, holds both blessings and curses. I call it the in-between place, a sort of purgatory where a decision has to be made. But hell will have none of the blessings of God and heaven will have none of the curses. So, yes, it won’t be pleasant for those who fear God and flee from his presence.”

Silence.

“So why is hell forever?” LaMonte asked. “No second chances.”

“Because once you see God and there is no more doubt about his existence or his judgment on your sin, the fear is there to stay. In this life, fear can be turned into love through hope and faith but in the life to come fear cannot become love any longer.”

“So, because God is eternal our fear of him will be eternal, so hell is eternal,” LaMonte said. “I don’t like it, but I get it. It makes what we do in this life all that more important.”

“Now you see why telling people the good news is such a big part of our jobs as followers of Christ,” I said. “Sin and judgment and hell are so serious that Jesus had to die on the cross to save us from it. But whatever we decide, it has to happen on this side of the grave.”

“I still find the whole idea to be a made-up fantasy by the religious establishment,” Pastor McPhearson said. “And the idea that God would allow so many ordinary, good people go to hell is just beyond my comprehension.”

“I understand,” I said. “Especially when you think of actual people with real names.” I was quiet for a long moment, and everyone was looking down and thinking, even LaMonte who was supposed to be keeping the conversation going. But it felt like a divine moment, and I was thankful for the break. But there was a question that needed to be asked. “Who are you thinking about, Pastor Holly?” That was the first time I had used her first name.

She looked a bit startled but then smiled weakly. “My son, Ian, died three years ago in a car crash on the 401. He wasn’t a believer like you are. So, according to you, he’s in hell right now. I can’t accept that.”

“The other day I was thinking about my kids along those same lines. They are still alive but there is no guarantee that they will become believers. They could also end up in hell.” I was quiet again. “Jesus called it the second death, going to hell. And he was far more concerned about it than we are. It’s the reason he died on the cross. It’s the only reason he became a human and put up with our mockery and torture and slapping and spitting in his face. He knew how dangerous sin and evil were and that there was no coming back from the second death.”

“So, there is no hope for Ian then?” Pastor Holly said.

“No, I’m afraid not. There is only hope for the living, not for the dead.”

A tear crept out of my left eye and trickled down my cheek. “I’m so sorry, Pastor Holly.” I took her hand, and she almost pulled it away but then allowed me to hold it. “Sometimes I can’t help but start weeping for all the people who I know and love who are oblivious to the danger and don’t care. They won’t listen to me. They avoid me. And the thing is that I am no better or worse than they are. The only difference is that I have traded places with Jesus and have the Holy Spirit within me. I have a new relationship with God based on faith, built on hope for the future and teaching me to love God and others.”

Pastor Holly pulled her hand away from mine. It probably didn’t look very good on television anyway, although I think we all had forgotten about the audience a while ago. We were way over our time limit as well.

“Sometimes it makes me sick to hear how you Christians sing your songs about heaven and how you can’t wait to get there and how great it’s going to be, but all I can think about is who won’t be there.”

“I don’t blame you one bit,” I said. “In fact, it sounds rather selfish, doesn’t it?”

“You bet it does.” That came from LaMonte.

“Which is why we Christians are still here. Otherwise, why doesn’t God just bring us to heaven once we are converted? We have work to do. We sing songs about going to heaven, but we also weep for those who are still in danger. We have a message that needs to get out there for those who are still alive.” I took a deep breath. “And for those who have already passed, we have to trust that if there was a way to save them, God would find it and if not, then we need to trust Him that he is always good and that it breaks his heart even more than it breaks our hearts to lose people.”

Pastor Holly looked at me strangely.

“What I can tell you is that I don’t want to be in heaven without my loved ones, but whether I like it or not, I have to respect their choices. I can try to convince them. I can pray for them. I can yell and scream at the heavens, but nothing will change the fact that love is always a choice, and you can’t force your children to love you much less God.”

“True enough,” LaMonte said.

“Are you beginning to see how hard this is for God and why he weeps for us?” I said.

Both LaMonte and Pastor Holly looked at me sharply.

“Yes, God loves Ian so much and yet, even he has to respect his choices. God weeps for people just like we do. He wants everyone to be in heaven with him and is extremely angry at the Devil for deceiving mankind into rebellion. The Devil has a special punishment reserved just for him in that hell but that doesn’t change the fact that humans will also end up there. That is why hell is such a cruel joke for God.”

Silence.

I took Pastor Holly’s hand again and then reached over to take LaMonte’s hand as well which was lying on the desk not too far away. It was a bit of a stretch and he almost pulled away, but I think he was thinking about the optics and so decided to stay with it a little longer.

“I can tell you both truly, that neither God nor I would like to be in heaven without you.” I let that sink in. “I believe that this moment was orchestrated by God to get your attention, both of you, so that you could hear clearly his heart. He wants you to be with him for eternity and he would have died on that cross only for you two if that were necessary.”

By this time, tears were streaming down my face, and I can’t even tell you why. Pastor Holly pulled her hand away and said, “I would rather be with Ian.”

LaMonte also pulled his hand away but didn’t say anything for a long moment. Then he seemed to remember his role and decided to wrap things up.

“Well, there you have it folks. Believe it or not, God wants you to spend eternity with him. Whether you think heaven is a myth or hell is a joke, perhaps it’s best to read the Bible and talk to God about it directly. That’s all for this edition of the Harry LaMonte Show. Until next time. God bless America.”