The Immortality Debate

“I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul. . . . I am an aggregate of cells, as, for instance, New York City is an aggregate of individuals. Will New York City go to heaven? . . . No; nature made us—nature did it all—not the gods of the religions.”</p><br /> <p>—Thomas Alva Edison, American inventor in The New York Times, Oct. 2, 1910 ("No Immortality of the Soul" Says Thomas A. Edison, interview by Edward Marshall)</p><br /> <p>- See more at:
“I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul. . . . I am an aggregate of cells, as, for instance, New York City is an aggregate of individuals. Will New York City go to heaven? . . . No; nature made us—nature did it all—not the gods of the religions.”—Thomas Alva Edison, American inventor in The New York Times, Oct. 2, 1910 (“No Immortality of the Soul” Says Thomas A. Edison, interview by Edward Marshall)- See more at:
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  • NJ id support this more if Edison wasn’t such a corrupt f**king dick.
  • JW Hahahaha! Smart people generally are dicks. Autism strolls hand in hand I find
  • Bert Amsing The real problem is that his argument simply doesn’t hold up….belief in the immortality of the soul is an ancient belief agreed to by most religions in the world….his analogy to New York doesn’t hold up because NY isn’t a person….so it is a logical fallacy….besides, everyone knows that NY is an apple…lol
  • Bert Amsing The question is whether the human person is only material or something more….it is not just the immortality of the soul that is at question but the existence of the soul….if we are only material….then we are nothing but energy….and energy never dies…isn’t that a form of immortality of the soul for materialists?
  • Bert Amsing The real issue is whether our self consciousness continues to exist after death….obviously our material transforms into other forms of energy…but what about our self consciousness….the source of our own consciousness of worth and value….which doesn’t want to die…or disperse our energy…it wants to maintain it’s consciousness of it’s own existence and even more, it wants to have a QUALITY expression of that existence…
  • Bert Amsing So the question really is, do we get what we want? We want to continue because we are self conscious…that self consciousness is what is normally considered to be soul…something more than merely materialism…it wants to continue as an individually conscious entity with all of its uniqueness….does it get what it wants and why does self consciousness value itself and want to continue indefinitely? Does it desire what is natural or unnatural? Is the desire integral to its makeup or is it an imposition of religion?
  • Bert Amsing I don’t know of very many people who are happy with death. Animals are not self conscious so they do not suffer the anticipation of termination, but we do….why? If it is due to evolution, why did evolution throw us up on the sands of time with self consciousness, rationality and a love for beauty and joy? This is what the debate about the immortality of the soul is all about….what do you think?
  • NJ to think animals are not self consious re enforces your arrogance bert. ever been hunting? seen the life drain from a majestic beast? given thanks for its sacrifice that you may live?
  • NJ they are concious… very concious
  • Bert Amsing I didn’t say that they were not conscious….I said that they were not self conscious…..from a materialistic point of view, we would say that they do not have a well developed frontal lobe …..why would you call me arrogant about something so obvious? Yes, I give thanks for its sacrifice that we may live….more than you might think….but the anthropomorphism of animals is for cartoons and comic books….not for scientists in the real world….what is the world coming to?
  • NJ look into the eyes of the beast. because you do not share a common language you ASS U ME they are not self concious. as you believe you are greater and they lesser. I cannot prove they are any more than you can prove they are not but when i interact with them,observe how they interact with one another i do not think it’s possible they could not be self aware. the brain, and it’s structures are not well enough understood. we are learning, but not all knowing. how do cyborgs fit into the picture? i have met people in the scientific community who believe cybernetic enhancements to be commonplace in the near future. if not the norm. this gentleman postulates within 20 years the majority of humans will be augmented with integrated technologies to enhance the body. kinda uncomfortable for me. i like the natural and trust natures ability to adapt much more than humanities technology.
  • Bert Amsing Maybe so….and I don’t disagree….on the cyborg thing…but what does that have to do with self consciousness? That has to do with the materialistic side….not the self awareness side….perhaps we need to define a bit better what we mean by self awareness or self consciousness….awareness of self means that we are sentient beings…we can come to rational conclusions about our own existence… animal feels pain, suffers the pain and then, when the pain is gone, gets on with their life….they do not suffer the anticipation of pain days in advance or the memory of the pain days after (unless the pain continues)….it isn’t about language (or better said, about communication) but about awareness of self….if they WERE aware of themselves and they wanted to communicate with us …even though we have different languages…there are many ways for them to indicate to us that they are self aware and therefore aware of us as more than simply another animal….to turn to Hollywood for some examples….Happy Feet, The Movie…could be one way to do it….dancing in a human style (rather than an animal’s style) is a self aware, self concious act that would communicate between species…..many other tests for self awareness exist….you can google it if you like….but why ruin a great discussion with words like arrogance and ASS U ME….is that really necessary, just because we disagree? Just saying….
  • NJ my big dog tj died at home last summer. we buried him in our yard. as we were gathered around the grave saying our last goodbyes nessa, our other dog came by with a ball she and tj played with regularly. i have no idea where it came from. she looked at his now silent body and tossed the ball in… i wept. she sat by his grave daily for a month… she still lies there often, and rolls right on that spot. not self aware, hogwash. your book is only a tale, or series of tales. that only reveal a portion of the big picture. i dont have all the answers. never will. but unlike others i wont threaten you with eternal damnation for not believing the same as me. life and the nature of the universe and time are too complex for any one being to know all.
  • NJ you will not censor me bert. i call em like i see em. no bs
  • Bert Amsing not trying to censor you…..trying to have a conversation…..I have no problem with bs….I have a problem with rudeness….
  • Bert Amsing Your link is not from a scientific source…..just because it uses the name science…..just like there is pseudo psycho babble…there is also a lot of pseudo science babble….but let’s not worry about it….we are no longer talking or sharing ideas so there really is no benefit to the discussion….live long and prosper….
  • Bert Amsing One last comment….if there is no immortality of the soul….then when you die, it’s like the TV turns off….nothing…no awareness….you are energy and to energy you will return….but if the soul is immortal….then there is something…are you ready for that something…..or someone? If God exists, whether you believe in Him or not, you will have to deal with that reality. If God exists, it is a game changer…..then the next question is…what does He want? Does He accept me the way I am…good and bad alike….is He a loving God? Or does He condemn me for my disbelief, lack of faith, arrogance, selfishness, broken relationships etc etc? Or both? How do you know? Do you even care? The ultimate reality of the universe, according to the Bible, is a God who is three in one….the ultimate alien, if you like….believe it or not…but if He is there and if He has intervened in human history as the Bible claims, then you have to deal with Him sooner or later….either in life or in death….thankfully the Bible says that He is GOOD….that means that He is both absolutely JUST and absolutely LOVING….not loving alone and not just alone….He takes our evil seriously….and we all have a lot more of it then we are willing to admit….but he loves us too….we condemn ourselves to eternal damnation when we refuse to have a positive, enriching relationship with Him…..this is an inbetween time….He is giving us time to decide….but there is only one way to have a new relationship with Him….His way….He came to earth as a human, paid the price for the consequences and punishment of sin to fulfill absolute Justice….you get what you deserve…He got what we deserved….His love fulfilled his justice…If you don’t do it His way, you don’t get a relationship with Him…..if you don’t want him in this life, you don’t get him in the next….so you condemn yourself…..believe it or not…but don’t be fooled…..a man always reaps what he sows….my wish for you is that you live long and eternally and prosper in every way, but especially in a new relationship with God through Jesus Christ empowered by the Holy Spirit….strange words, perhaps….but, like you said, you don’t know everything….God is inviting you to step into a whole new world of knowing…I hope you come…..
  • Bert Amsing Their sense of mine-ness or body-ness is their sense of self. Just to clarify, when I read over my response to you, I realized that you might have misunderstood my reference to the psuedo scientific babble remark….it was rude….my apologies….and certainly wasn’t meant to apply to Marc Bekoff but rather to the general field….Bekoff is a scientist of high calibre…but even he is not suggesting, as per the quote above, that an animals self awareness is the same as a human’s self awareness…..they make that distinction in the article…in fact, I like his article because he admits, even from a materialistic point of view, that humans have a highly developed sense of self…he, understandably, identifies it with a material mine-ness or body-ness in animals but states that it is more highly developed in humans….does he mean to say that it is not merely a material self-designation but also a psychological one? He doesn’t say….that is not his focus….but that is what is at issue in the discussion….and that difference is what we are talking about….if you want to say that animals are self-aware in this basic material sense, I would agree….but we were talking about the distinctive concept of self awareness that results in self value, anticipation and memory…a well developed frontal lobe…that is more than material, perhaps even more than psychological….and that has been called a soul for centuries…if that soul exists (whether unique to humans or not), is it immortal? That is the question….
  • JW Interesting. Certain animals are developing a higher state of self awareness. I have seen it. It is rudimentary, like say that of a three year old. I too have experienced things of that nature. Will another creature ever be as evil (sorry humane) as humans? Don’t know. Apes, dolphins, canines seem the most logical. Who knows. Maybe Bigfoot (who’s DNA has been found – part man-bear?) is the ancestor. Highly doubt it. But if we have proof of aliens, which we do, maybe they are our “soul mates”. The missing sentient link. I think we are immortal in the collective sense of the universe.
  • Bert Amsing Wow….that was all over the place….you are interesting, I’ll say that…lol
  • JW  it is all one in the same and totally different at the same time. All if these arguments seem rhetorical.
    Like science everything crosses into another realm. Biology and chemistry. Chemistry and physics. Ect. Everything ties into each other.
    I can’t have an effective argument (as my brain toils in semantics).
    All I really know is cellular respiration happens daily, this I am alive and kicking. When the day comes for my demise it will be definitive answer. I am good person and I have faith if there is a god as you say, I will suffer in eternal damnation. Oh well. Life isn’t fair why would after life be different
  • Bert Amsing Well, if your lucky….it will be more like the TV turning off…just nothing…scary thought still….I don’t like it much….my relationships, my ideas, my dreams….all gone…into nothing…
  • Bert Amsing On the other hand, the Bible suggests a much scarier alternative….instead of nothing….something….and that something is called JUDGEMENT…..well, that is even scarier if you ask me….Somebody…GOD….will judge me? On what basis? Morality? Good intentions? Belief? Faith? What?
  • Bert Amsing And what are the consequences if I do not pass the judgement? Will it be fair? Apparently so….God HAS TO be fair…it is in his nature….but what is fair? Fair is when you clean up your own mess. Fair is when you put things right. Fair is when you take responsibility for your mistakes. At the end of the day, we all know two things….that being fair (justice) is incredibly difficult if not impossible. Once the words are spoken, they cannot be unspoken and (depending on the words) sorry…just doesn’t seem to cut it most of the time….Once an act is done, it cannot be undone…..restitution can (and should) be made sometimes but many times it isn’t a financial matter. We can’t go back in time to undo what we have done wrong….you can’t undo adultery…you can’t undo the hurt caused by lying, or slander or liable or gossip….you can’t undo murder, rape, suffering….how do you make amends? How do you do what is fair? The justice system is not about FAIR….how is putting someone in prison FAIR when they raped and killed your daughter….how is it FAIR that someone lies in a morgue because of a drunk driver who walked away without a scratch….life isn’t FAIR…you got that right….but that is because WE are not GOOD. If people would not do EVIL (in all it’s forms) then life would be fine….and FAIR would not even enter in….as the Apostle Paul said in the Bible…if you love one another you don’t need the law….or justice….or fairness….instead of fairness, you have love which is much better….
  • Bert Amsing So, what is the point? The point is that God is FAIR….He is JUST….it is part of His nature…..He will require that we fix whatever we have broken and cure whatever we have hurt and make it like it was before our EVIL intervened in the other person’s life to hurt them….
  • Bert Amsing So if you have never hurt anyone….broken any relationships….never have done anyone any wrong or harm….you are fine…no problem….the only thing is that that person doesn’t exist….
  • Bert Amsing You can cry out…that it isn’t FAIR that God is absolutely JUST…..I get that….we don’t practice justice very well here on earth much less practice it absolutely….we all know that it would be impossible….there is simply too much evil…and we don’t have the ability to put things back the way they were before….I call it the Humpty Dumpty Principle….all the kings horses and all the kings men, couldn’t put Humpty together again….exactly…
  • Bert Amsing So, yes, God will be FAIR….He will be JUST….and that ought to scare the living daylights out of us….we live in a JUST universe if God exists….if He doesn’t…no worries….the TV turns off…your value and contribution is over… la vie….but if He exists and He is JUST…then we are in trouble….all of us…
  • Bert Amsing Of course, that realization is the first step on the road to recovery….being realistic about our sin….it’s like addiction recovery….you have to first name the problem….look it in the face and call it what it is….
  • Bert Amsing But we don’t have a solution…..we can’t control our evil completely and we can’t go back in time to try various times to get it right…..but God has a solution…..
  • JW Messy and clean all at the same time. Everything ties into everything. It is all energy.
    Like the 4th state of water, who knew.
  • Bert Amsing He doesn’t just excuse evil…he deals with it….because He is also LOVE….he took the punishment on himself on one condition….that we are loyal to him and to his solution….Jesus Christ, God’s son…the most valuable thing in the universe to him….a voluntary sacrifice…an agreement between the two of them…acted out on earth….but only on one condition…that we confess that we are evil and He is good (just and loving), that we repent (an active daily intention and practice of changing our ways and going in the opposite direction) and that we forgive others and love them the same way that God loves us….on the basis of the cross….God does not just excuse sin….he takes the punishment on himself in exchange for our loyalty and love…it is a relationship….it changes everything…
  • NJ you cannot prove that “he” exists, how do you know what “he ” will do? another manifestation of your faith dilution.
  • Bert Amsing So when I face the judgement, I can admit that I am guilty but I throw myself on the mercy of the court in the name of Jesus and claim that he took my punishment….and God will accept ONLY that claim….no other excuse….no other name….no other solution….only Jesus ….the most valuable thing to Him in the entire universe….
  • NJ sounds like dmt to me
  • Bert Amsing The reason I get to spend eternity with God is because I am now his son…part of the family…because of Jesus…..not because I am better than anyone else….just because I accepted his solution and acted on it….in this life….hope that helps…
  • JW Only time can tell. Until then, game on
  • NJ show me the words your prophet wrote in his holy book… thats what i thought
  • Bert Amsing Remember NJ…that the basis of this whole argument is that this information comes from God….apparently, He intervened in history numerous times, from Moses to Jesus and he made sure to tell us a number of key things about ourselves and about himself….
  • NJ i call that intuition. it comes from decisions my conscious mind makes based on observations and interactions with the world around me.
  • NJ things are always happening. a side effect of the passage of time. without time there is nothing.
  • Bert Amsing NJ…you say that you cannot prove that He exists….he could do it easily….just show up….He would scare you half to death….but it isn’t hard….or do you want logical proof…..lots of that too….books and books on good, cogent arguments for the existence of God….people who are open to it can find a lot of evidence for the existence of God….on the other hand, the Bible says that proving His existence isn’t the problem…the problem with the human race isn’t that they don’t know that God exists….it’s that they don’t want to follow Him….they don’t want him to have any authority in their lives….I certainly didn’t at first…until I learned to trust Him….I get it….so what God is trying to do is not scare you into heaven…or convince you that he is there….he is trying to get you to trust him with your life…that takes more finesse and patience…
  • Bert Amsing Not sure what you mean by DMT…NJ….please clarify…
  • Bert Amsing The problem is that we cannot wait until we see him physically to make up our mind to trust him or accept his solution….
  • Bert Amsing When we see him, we will be full of fear….every encounter in the Bible even if only with angels was full of fear…because we know we are guilty…and if we are full of fear, we cannot love….that is why He stays hidden….to teach us the ways of love….loving Him and trusting Him before fear overwhelms us…the Bible says that perfect love (God’s kind of love) casts out fear….that is our only protection on the day of judgement….that God loves us and that we love Him in return….
  • NJ the spirit drug used in shamanic practices … mainly in s america and other tropical areas. be careful not to confuse god and your favorite character, jesus. i’m sorry to tell you, jesus was a fictional character in the new testament created to set an example.. the book was written to control the masses of slaves threatening to revolt against their roman masters. you seem intelligent, i cannot understand how a person as yourself cannot see the obvious evidence. you wanna see spirits? head to the shaman for some dmt. you will see things , you may even believe they are real. most likely they are not
  • Bert Amsing Learning the ways of love and trust can only be done in this life…without 100% proof….in the context of other alternatives that also make sense….like evolution (which I would accept if I didn’t believe that the God of the Bible actually exists)….trust and love are developed and tested in this life….but in order to enter into the relationship, you have to start with admitting the truth….making a commitment to change…and accepting the sacrifice of Jesus as your substitute….and committing yourself to a life of loyal and loving service to him and his purpose for your life….you might be surprised at the adventure and the joy that your life will have….helping to rescue others and teaching them the ways of love in a dark and dangerous world….not a bad way to go….it enhances my value and my contribution and my uniqueness….and I get to live forever with the one person in the universe who is more valuable to me than anyone or anything else….Jesus….
  • Bert Amsing I still don’t know what DMT is….but your comments about the shamans I will ignore….even you don’t believe that they are real….drugs and spiritism is a dead end….but your comments about Jesus confuse me….do you really believe that, NJ? Where are you getting your information from? I thought you were a materialist who believed in secular humanism and the triumph of science and technology….I didn’t realize that you were into the new age….
  • Bert Amsing Your beliefs about the Bible and Jesus are simply incorrect….scientifically and historically….if you had said that Jesus was the historical character that lived 2000 years ago and the concept of Christ was an invention of the church….at least that is a cogent argument….not one I agree with but at least it is based on the Historical Method for determining past events…how can we have a discussion if you do not follow normal procedures for determining truth….in the past or the present…..just saying….
  • Bert Amsing Oh, wait….maybe you were being sarcastic….and I missed it….sorry….doesn’t always come through in the written word…I’ll just laugh at myself now for missing it….of course, you weren’t serious….ok, ok…I get it…
  • NJ you are free to live as you wish however my freedom and the freedom of countless others are continually assaulted by religious zealots such as yourself. you judge me and yet your holy book condemns this.i thought you were christian? native spiritual practices have done more good and less evil than Christianity throughout the millennia… read the countless genocides conducted on orders of the church. myan, aztec to name two.
  • NJ

    N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (DMT or N,N-DMT) is a psychedelic compound of the tryptamine family. When ingested, DMT acts as an intense hallucinogenic drug.[3] Depending on the dose and method of administration, its subjective effects can range from short-lived, milder psychedelic states to powerful immer…
  • NJ…/features/peru.html

    Writer Kira Salak goes into the Peruvian Amazon to try the shamanistic therapy called ayahuasca, said to cure everything from depression to cancer. Video Exclusive!
  • NJ where is the PHYSICAL evidence of Jesus? no body. what about Joseph? his other children? jesus’ written words?
  • Bert Amsing NJ, you say that Jesus and God are not the same person….and that is a legitimate position…one that many people take….he was a good example…as you pointed out….but remember, Christianity is based on the resurrection of Jesus from the dead….we believe that he really, actually got out of the grave, spent 40 days and nights with his followers (over 500 of them) and then went back into heaven (apparently another dimension). Hard to believe…but most of these 500 people were willing to die for their belief that Jesus rose from the dead and spent time with them….not just once but over and over again….no mass hallucination….not possible over 40 days….not an agreement to lie…people do not agree to be tortured and die for a lie….but the disciples who were scared and fearful before the resurrection were full of courage and beans after the resurrection….everyone agrees that something happened…even if it is hard to believe what they ALL said had happened….and if they are right (you will have to decide for yourself), then it proves that Jesus was God….he claimed to be God….if he was lying, he isn’t a very good person and a lousy example ….if he was dilusional, like the crazy guy who claims to be Napoleon….then we should just feel sorry for him but not listen to anything he says….but if he was telling the truth, then he had better prove it….and he did….with what he said….with what he did….apparently he healed people who were born deaf, or grew limbs in the moment, and healed people of all sorts of things….and even rose Lazarus from the grave….the 500 witnesses claim that they were there and saw it with their own eyes….but when he died on that cross, they all lost hope….and were in fear for their lives….then something happened….the Apostle Paul said that if the resurrection did not actually, historically, scientifically happen, then we are the most foolish people on earth….we are basing everything on that one truth….it proves that Jesus was God….it proves that what he said and did was true….and he said that the old testament was true….that the stories about Moses and David and Abraham were true….that the Bible was true and could be relied upon as accurate in what it wants and intends to say….therefore we know that God created the world…even if we aren’t clear exactly how he did it….through a long process of evolution or a quick process of 7 days….both are scientifically possible….but the point is ….Christians, by definition, believe that Jesus Christ as portrayed to us in the Bible…written by the witnesses but inspired by God…is the Jesus of history who rose from the dead….and he is God….and because he is God….his substitution for me works…only God, in the person of Jesus, was valuable enough to die for the sins of the world. You can disagree, but this is the basic position of Christianity….
  • Bert Amsing Ok, NJ….don’t know what to say to your claims about shamanism….other than it won’t save you from the last judgement if there is one….
  • NJ thats a big if… i’m not wasting what IS for what MIGHT be.
  • Bert Amsing And I am not talking about the church….which has made many mistakes in the past and in the present….God is ashamed and often infuriated with those who claim to follow him and yet order genocides…or wars….or inquisitions….of course there are evil people everywhere…and they get into the church as well and sometimes into leadership positions….
  • NJ there are good everywhere also. being christian is not a prerequisite for goodness
  • Bert Amsing Agreed wholeheartedly….there is good in everyone….but also evil…our bits and pieces of goodness will not be enough for the FAIRNESS of God…as I stated above…but being a real Christian who takes it seriously is a prerequisite for getting through the last judgement ….if there is one….
  • NJ…/the…

    The resurrection of Jesus is a hoax because Mark, the earliest gospel, never contained the story. The “resurrection” passages were later added to Mark, and his gospel was changed by Matthew and Luke, the Gospel writers are anonymous. It was necessary for Matthew and Luke to change Mark according to…
  • Bert Amsing Wow…NJ…I like what you just said….You said, that’s a big IF…I’m not wasting what IS for what MIGHT be….I couldn’t have said it better…..Jesus actually said that if you were not ready to give up THIS life, you would not get the NEXT one….so you are dead on…..A Christian, on the other hand, IS willing to give up EVIL, and selfishness and self-authority, to obey a God that they love and trust for what they BELIEVE MIGHT be waiting for them…..some Christians even say that they would rather follow God and love Jesus and turn their backs on their own brands of evil (whatever that might be) in THIS life….even if there is NO eternal life waiting for them….Yes, it is a risk…love is always a risk….yes, it takes faith….faith is the most valuable thing in the world to God….it is a product of love…as it is in every marriage….yes, I agree with you wholeheartedly….
  • NJ faith is … stupid. blind and stupid. like driving down the highway with your eyes closed stupid.
  • Bert Amsing The Resurrection Hoax….really? You don’t think that we have seen these pseudo scientific rebuttals over and over again…it actually started right after the resurrection…..the religious leaders of the time told the guards to spread the rumour that the disciples had come at night while they were asleep and stole the body….nobody believed it, of course….a crack Roman guard detail never slept on duty…it was punishable by death….and a bunch of fishermen came and stole the body from them…really?…no one believed it….and it continues today…there will always be people who will claim that it didn’t happen….but they constantly fall short….they can only make noise but there is no substance….if you like, I will go through their arguments and show you in detail….let me know…
  • Bert Amsing The comments about the gospel of Mark are simply false….no authority on the Bible…Christian and non-Christian…. believes that….and by the way, what they are referring to is the Q document, not Mark…they can’t even get it right….sorry, but it is rather lame….
  • Bert Amsing You have to check your sources of information….not everything you find on the internet is actually true….or verified….including anything that I have said….you need to go back to the Bible and read it for yourself and find people who are real Christians who can explain it to you….but in the end, you have to decide for yourself whether you believe it or not….
  • Bert Amsing In any event, if God doesn’t exist, there is no last judgement and you have nothing to worry about….if he does…well…that is another matter….
  • Bert Amsing One last word about hell…..if you take the attitude that JW has taken…..*game on*…….*we will just have to wait and see*….you haven’t looked at the downside yet….if you don’t get through the last judgement (and you won’t without Jesus according to the Bible), then hell and damnation wait for you….and it won’t be pretty….
  • Bert Amsing Before you get too caught up with the concept of hell and damnation….you need to remember that everything you receive in this life …..if there is a God….comes from Him….even the life and breath in your body….the sunshine, the beauty, the joy….all of it….we create the evil in the world but all of the goodness of the world comes from God….in this life, God is willing to give you time to make a decision about how you want to live your life….and so he allows you to enjoy his creation and the life that he gave you….but the concept of hell is basically God taking those things away from you….he will not support your rebellion against him for more than this lifetime….everyone gets a chance….but only one….hell is eternal fear….eternal life without God and all of his benefits…and because you live in eternal fear there is no possibility for love…if God only took that away and MADE YOU live forever without love….even if you had everything else….what a miserable existence you would have….so, if you want to wait and see….go ahead….but I wouldn’t take the risk….perhaps this entire discussion was orchestrated by God to give you a glimpse of the love that He has for you … tell you how much he wants you to come home…to come back to him….to redirect your life so that he can give you beauty and joy and love to overflowing….so that he can teach you the truth about yourself, and him, and the world….God loves you enough to die for you….the question is whether or not you want to live for him… the end of the day, he is just asking you to trust him with your life….give up your self-authority and trust his authority….obey him and love him….and your life will never be the same again….
  • Bert Amsing Ok, NJ…I like your analogy about driving down the highway …..but not with your eyes shut….that would be blind faith….our faith is based on good evidence….whether the evidence is enough for you or not…you will have to decide….besides, don’t you realize that when you drive down the highway, you are always exercising faith….in a big way….you believe that this car (or worse, a semi truck and trailer) that is coming at you at over 100Km per hour is going to stay on his side of the line….less than a yard away….while you hurdle toward him at the same speed….you believe….you have faith….that he is not drunk….that he is not distracted….that he doesn’t have a death wish….sometimes you are right….maybe most times….but sometimes you are wrong….in any event…it takes faith to drive down the highway even with your eyes wide open….faith is in a person…in this case, Jesus….and God… is not the blind belief that you will not crash and burn….it is the trust in God that even if you crash and burn …..he will be at your side and that even death (on a highway or in bed) cannot separate you from his love….if you are a child of God, you get to live forever….yes, it takes trust….and it may sound stupid to you….but that is the way love is….crazy, risky, but worth it…..or have you never fallen in love before? That is a taste of what it is like with God….
  • Bert Amsing I expected someone to say….You can’t argue with a person in love….that would have really cracked me up….so true….lol